Links to Past Debates on Book of Mormon Topics

The following are links to past conversations I’ve had or read with LDS who defend the historicity of the BoM in Mesoamerica. I participated on the ezboard Zion’s Lighthouse Message Board as Trixie, and later as SevenofNiine. I later participated on the former FAIR board as beastie. That board later evolved into the Mormon Apologetics & Discussion board (MAD). I still participate on Dr. Shades Mormon Discussion Board, although fewer believers visit that board, so fewer links originate on that board.

The debates are of varying quality, and I did not participate in all of them. I provide these links due to the fact that they may provide more detail on topics I did not directly address in my essays.

Note: the Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board has blocked direct links from this website. It will be necessary to copy and paste the link in order to access it.

Anachronisms

Metal – “Linguistic Evidence” and misleading apologetics

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm79.showMessage?topicID=342.topic

linked FAIR thread: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=16949&st=40

2. A discussion of the feasibility of the “tapir” for “horse” in the BoM:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14120

3. Discussion of BoM “horses”

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=7578

4. Thread in which Sorenson’s abuse of metallurgy references is exposed.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=8349&st=0

5. King Nephi and the others – includes references to evidence of Hun horses

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessageRange?topicID=19.topic&start=1&stop=20

6. Metallurgy in the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=134.topic

7. Sorenson’s abuse of metallurgy sources discussed on ZLMB

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm77.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

8. Sorenson’s second abuse of metallurgy sources

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm77.showMessage?topicID=96.topic

9. Yet another example of Sorenson’s egregious use of sources – his “bow”

(note, the image is no longer available, but was what appeared to be a stick)

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm77.showMessage?topicID=121.topic

10. Brant finally admits I was correct about the dating of the Helaman wars, which presents a serious anachronism

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessage?topicID=136.topic

11. Stained swords

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=21.topic

12. Wheels

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=142.topic

13. More on wheels

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=67.topic

14. BoM monetary system

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=102.topic

15. Sorenson’s Second Abused Metallurgy Source

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=8958&hl

16. Elephants in the Book of Mormon

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14159&hl

17. BoM anachronisms

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14638&hl

18. Horses and Chariots

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14406&hl=

19. Horse Bones in CA

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=20895&hl=

20. Nephite Oil Lamps

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21489&hl=

21. Horses – Mercer, Hatt, and Schmidt references

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=4536

Archaeology Applied to the BoM

Discovery of an ancient Olmec influenced polity – discussion evolved to whether or not archaeologists expect to find material evidence of immigrant groups

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21404

2. Parallelism and its inherent risks - Each side tends to accuse the other of parallelomania. The possible nineteenth century connection to the anti-Masonic furvor is discussed.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessageRange?start=1&stop=20&topicID=44.topic

3. A lengthy discussion of Jared Diamond’s book “Guns, Germs, and Steel” and its implications for the BoM.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessageRange?topicID=234.topic&start=1&stop=20

4. Brant Gardner defends the historicity of the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessage?topicID=20.topic

5. Thread in which the unfalsifiability of the BoM is discussed. Includes Daniel Peterson’s “white crow” argument.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=8544&hl=Olmec&st=0

6. Analyzing the claim that the end-time chronology of the BoM correlates to Maya history

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessageRange?start=1&stop=20&topicID=420.topic

7. Three Days of Darkness in BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=97.topic

8. Continued discussion of the end times of the BoM compared to Maya timeline

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=420.topic

9. Believers list favorite evidences of BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=494.topic

10. Three Days of Darkness in BoM, includes Gadianton Robbers

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=456.topic

11. Two Hill Cumorahs

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=262.topic

12. Brant Gardner’s flawed attempts to connect Teotihuacan to the cement city, and a possible dating error within the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessageRange?topicID=196.topic&start=1&stop=20

13. El Mirador postulated as being Ammonihah

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm77.showMessage?topicID=114.topic

14. Cannibalism in the BoM and Mesoamerica

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm77.showMessage?topicID=169.topic

15. Discussion of the misleading aspects of John Clark’s BYU devotional, includes Brant Gardner’s misleading use of a Coe citation

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessage?topicID=216.topic

16. Nahom

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

17. Maya calendar and the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=79.topic

18. Lehites land in Chile

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=336.topic

19. The conflict of LGT with the flood

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=327.topic

20. Discrepancy between BoM and Maya, and Lemba DNA

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessageRange?topicID=445.topic&start=1&stop=20

21. New Maya city discovered (also discussion of Brant Gardner’s methodology using his past Coxoh article.)

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=396.topic

22. Definition of “Lamanite”

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=412.topic

23. BoM Lands

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm63.showMessage?topicID=480.topic

24. Believer attempts to make connections to Mesoamerica

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm63.showMessage?topicID=417.topic

25. BoM names

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=182.topic

26. The Nephi Project

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=287.topic

27. 2 Nephi and LGT

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=292.topic

28 Cohen Modal Haplotype

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=239.topic

29. Idolatry in the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=240.topic

30. Some BoM distances

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=220.topic

31. Detecting past Christian culture

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=214.topic

32. Others in the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=210.topic

33. “Positive Evidences” analyzed

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=182.topic

34. If the BoM people had never existed, would Mesoamerica look any different?

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=161.topic

35. Sherem

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=172.topic

36. Lamanite DNA – Brent Metcalfe

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=98.topic

37. Testable BoM claims

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=320.topic

38. Sunlight at Christ’s birth

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=407.topic

39. DNA

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=343.topic

40. “Official” BoM geography

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=266.topic

41. Comments on John Clark’s BYU devotional

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=483.topic

42. Believers share what they feel are the best evidences

http://pub26.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm56.showMessageRange?topicID=472.topic&start=61&stop=80

43. Were the Lamanites Mayan?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=6169&st=0

44. Bill Hamblin’s flawed BoM challenge

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=5892&hl

45. Zelph the White Lamanite

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=6501&hl

46. What Would a Nephite Pot Look Like?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=8731&hl

47. Believers Criticize Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel without having read the book

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14180&hl=

48. Another Zelph, the White Lamanite

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14367&hl=

49. BoM names

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=14689&hl

50. What scientific considerations warrant the belief that the Book of Mormon is not historical.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15236&hl=

51. Does Archaeology Prove the BoM False?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15214&hl=

52. Bearded Statues in Mesoamerica

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15500&hl=

53. My Correspondence with John Clark regarding his BYU devotional

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15576&hl

54. LDS archaeologists who don’t believe the BoM is historical

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15601&hl=

55. More evidence of “others”

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15580&hl

56. Early Maya Complex Society

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15331&hl=

57. Effect on John Clark

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15573&hl=

58. Light Skinned People in Peru?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21032&st=0

59. Menorah found in South America?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21063&hl=

60. Volcanism in the BoM

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21278&hl=

61. Discussion of John Clark’s "Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief"

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21200&hl=

General BoM Apologia - Including Translation Issues, Past Teachings, Witnesses, and Nineteenth Century Evidence

1. Various BoM “misses” are discussed, along with the conflicting ideas of “loose” and “tight” translation.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessageRange?topicID=318.topic&start=1&stop=20

2. Brant Gardner proposes what he deems to be the strongest evidence for the historicity of the BoM. The conversation also includes discussion of nineteenth century parallels.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessageRange?topicID=5.topic&start=1&stop=20

3. A discussion of Grant Palmer’s book:

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm64.showMessageRange?topicID=263.topic&start=1&stop=20

4. A lengthy discussion about the overall historicity of the BoM, with details such as the three days of darkness connection with earthquakes, and more Masonic information.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessageRange?topicID=184.topic&start=1&stop=20

5. Certain believers claim that the fact that JS “didn’t understand” the BoM (ie, didn’t believe in the Limited Geography Theory) proves he didn’t write it.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?s=e5ebe8ba1e931dc7d438a36f3b6b081d&showtopic=12058&st=270

6. Wesley sermons and the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=264.topic

7. Information JS had access to about Indians

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessageRange?topicID=129.topic&start=1&stop=20

8. More information JS had access to

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessageRange?topicID=191.topic&start=1&stop=20

9. Joseph Smith and the Narrow Neck of Land, includes map of New England setting, Holley’s setting

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm73.showMessage?topicID=347.topic

10. Wordprint and the BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=195.topic

11. Chiasmus

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=451.topic

12. Translating with a rock in a hat

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=380.topic

13. Witnesses to the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=420.topic

14. ”Climax” in the BoM (similar to chiasmus)

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=419.topic

15. The Lost 116 pages

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=338.topic

16. Who was the Author of the BoM?

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm63.showMessage?topicID=279.topic

17. Alternate theories for BoM

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=19.topic

18. Ethan Smith, Solomon Spalding, Oliver Cowdery

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=20.topic

19. Kinderhook plates

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=433.topic

20. Translation issues

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=269.topic

21. JS sole author

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=252.topic

22. Stone box

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=359.topic

23. JS, Orson Pratt, and LGT

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=28.topic

24. The number of gold plates

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=191.topic

25. Physics of the Gold Plates

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=247.topic

26. The BoM and Cultural Chauvinism

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=237.topic

27. Past prophets wrong on LGT

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=229.topic

28. BoM Witnesses

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=90.topic

29. LGT – radical revisionism

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=148.topic

30. Trinity in the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=9.topic

31. Prophets on Lamanite identity – links by Brent Metcalfe

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=82.topic

32. Translation process

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=435.topic

33. Wordprint and BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=423.topic

34. No longer Lamanites

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=414.topic

35. Egypt in BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=365.topic

36. BH Roberts and the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=126.topic

37. The Weight of the Gold Plates

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm10.showMessage?topicID=2995.topic

38. Wentworth Letter

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm20.showMessage?topicID=594.topic

39. BofM Historicity - The Conneaut Witnesses

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm20.showMessage?topicID=227.topic

40. More on Conneaut Witnesses

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm20.showMessage?topicID=217.topic

41. JS translated through “spiritual impressions”

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessage?topicID=456.topic

42. Nineteenth Century Explanations for the BoM

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15218&hl=

43. Witness Accounts of Translation Process

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15518&hl

44. When did JS know about Maya ruins?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21400&hl=

45. Dan Vogel and Dale Broadhurst Discuss Spalding/Rigdon Theory

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=868

General Apologia

1. How some believers appear to be using a variation of “post-modernism” in their defense of Mormonism in general.

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm79.showMessage?topicID=513.topic

2. Believer in the translation of the sealed portion of the gold plates challenges mormons to read and pray about the new scripture, they refuse

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessageRange?topicID=268.topic&start=1&stop=20

3. Implication of the BoM’ historicity to faith

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=50.topic

4. Determining myth

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=422.topic

5. BoM testimony compared to other faiths

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=372.topic

6. What would disprove the BoM to believers

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=260.topic

7. Unfalsifiability of the BoM

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=150.topic

8. Figuring out what the BoM actually says

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm67.showMessage?topicID=207.topic

9. Sunstone article on BoM apologetics

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm71.showMessage?topicID=80.topic

10. FARMS scholarship

http://p094.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm65.showMessageRange?topicID=204.topic&start=1&stop=20

11. Nibley’s mistakes

http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm72.showMessage?topicID=186.topic

12. The Silly “All Discoveries Have Been Done” Strawman

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=15256&hl=

13. Different Approaches to the BoM (sunstone articles)

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=20752&hl=

14. If It Wasn’t True, How Would You Know?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21457&hl=

15. Can Anything Prove the BoM False?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=21503&hl=

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